Colossians 3
18Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives and do not be embittered against them. 20Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord. 21Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.
Showing posts with label submissiveness. Show all posts
Showing posts with label submissiveness. Show all posts
Tuesday, November 27, 2007
Ephesians 5:22-33
Ephesians 5:22-33
22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Titus 2:1-5
Titus 2:1-5
1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. 3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. 6Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
Women are commanded to stand up for God’s word and teach other women. Women should not shrink back from this command or allow the culture to rob them from standing up for these issues. The Bible commands them to teach other women to be women and if they do not they are in sin. This should be common, women teaching other women about what it means to be a women and how to honor men in the church and to be wives and mothers. Likewise, men are to disciple other men and teach them what it means to be a man. There needs to be mothers and fathers in the church.
1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. 3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. 6Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; 7in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, 8sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
3Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
Women are commanded to stand up for God’s word and teach other women. Women should not shrink back from this command or allow the culture to rob them from standing up for these issues. The Bible commands them to teach other women to be women and if they do not they are in sin. This should be common, women teaching other women about what it means to be a women and how to honor men in the church and to be wives and mothers. Likewise, men are to disciple other men and teach them what it means to be a man. There needs to be mothers and fathers in the church.
Proverbs 31:23
Proverbs 31:23
23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
This whole chapter is about the woman, not the man, and I believe this verse is about her as well. I believe it is saying this man has the reputation he has at the gates because of his wife. I think this is because of two things. Here godly walk and encouragement makes him a better man and her repetition brings him honor. She is the glory of her husband. Instead of speaking, I believe it is the role of a woman to build up men to speak, specifically her husband.
23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
This whole chapter is about the woman, not the man, and I believe this verse is about her as well. I believe it is saying this man has the reputation he has at the gates because of his wife. I think this is because of two things. Here godly walk and encouragement makes him a better man and her repetition brings him honor. She is the glory of her husband. Instead of speaking, I believe it is the role of a woman to build up men to speak, specifically her husband.
1 Peter 3:1
1 Peter 3:1
won without a word
A woman has power and strength, dignity and influence without speaking a word.
In our culture, we have forgotten where true power lies.
won without a word
A woman has power and strength, dignity and influence without speaking a word.
In our culture, we have forgotten where true power lies.
1 Peter 3:1,2
1 Peter 3:1,2
so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
From a letter I wrote: Thanks for listening. God has gifted you, women, with strength, that us, men, do not possess. I think of the strength that God calls the wife to in 1 Peter 3 and how much power and influence submission, and a gentle and quiet spirit has. It changes the hearts of ungodly men, it gives you the ears of kings, and more. God’s mysteries are so amazing, he thwarts the wisdom of the world and takes what the world calls weakness and displays it into such a powerful strength. God’s calling for women to not have authority or to teach over men, is a calling for them to live in the strength and influence that he designed in women, to reflect His power and His mystery and His glory. And far from hindering them, God desires women to have a powerful influence over the church, no less then men. God displays his power in a quiet and gentle spirit strength, "which is very precious in the sight of God." Who can fathom the wisdom of God.
Sorry for going on, but I have been wrestling and struggling with this for several months and I am excited about how amazing God’s ways are. Thanks again for listening and being willing to talk to the pastor about leading. Thanks for all you have done.
----------------------------------------------------
Augustine’s Mother
Augustine’s mother followed these verses and believed them to be true. Here is Augustine’s account of it, who praised his mother often, for her godly character. She was greatly honored by the leaders in the church of her day. Her influence on the church was great and the effects of her life are still felt today. (She had an instrumental hand in the gospel being preserved through the Roman Catholic decay, for example.)
CHAPTER IX
"19. Thus modestly and soberly brought up, she was made subject to her parents by thee, rather more than by her parents to thee. She arrived at a marriageable age, and she was given to a husband whom she served as her lord. And she busied herself to gain him to thee, preaching thee to him by her behavior, in which thou madest her fair and reverently amiable, and admirable to her husband. For she endured with patience his infidelity and never had any dissension with her husband on this account. For she waited for thy mercy upon him until, by believing in thee, he might become chaste.
Moreover, even though he was earnest in friendship, he was also violent in anger; but she had learned that an angry husband should not be resisted, either in deed or in word. But as soon as he had grown calm and was tranquil, and she saw a fitting moment, she would give him a reason for her conduct, if he had been excited unreasonably. As a result, while many matrons whose husbands were more gentle than hers bore the marks of blows on their disfigured faces, and would in private talk blame the behavior of their husbands, she would blame their tongues, admonishing them seriously—though in a jesting manner—that from the hour they heard what are called the matrimonial tablets read to them, they should think of them as instruments by which they were made servants. So, always being mindful of their condition, they ought not to set themselves up in opposition to their lords. And, knowing what a furious, bad-tempered husband she endured, they marveled that it had never been rumored, nor was there any mark to show, that Patricius had ever beaten his wife, or that there had been any domestic strife between them, even for a day. And when they asked her confidentially the reason for this, she taught them the rule I have mentioned. Those who observed it confirmed the wisdom of it and rejoiced; those who did not observe it were bullied and vexed.
20. Even her mother-in-law, who was at first prejudiced against her by the whisperings of malicious servants, she conquered by submission, persevering in it with patience and meekness; with the result that the mother-in-law told her son of the tales of the meddling servants which had disturbed the domestic peace between herself and her daughter-in-law and begged him to punish them for it. In conformity with his mother’s wish, and in the interest of family discipline to insure the future harmony of its members, he had those servants beaten who were pointed out by her who had discovered them; and she promised a similar reward to anyone else who, thinking to please her, should say anything evil of her daughter-in-law. After this no one dared to do so, and they lived together with a wonderful sweetness of mutual good will.
21. This other great gift thou also didst bestow, O my God, my Mercy, upon that good handmaid of thine, in whose womb thou didst create me. It was that whenever she could she acted as a peacemaker between any differing and discordant spirits, and when she heard very bitter things on either side of a controversy—the kind of bloated and undigested discord which often belches forth bitter words, when crude malice is breathed out by sharp tongues to a present friend against an absent enemy—she would disclose nothing about the one to the other except what might serve toward their reconciliation. This might seem a small good to me if I did not know to my sorrow countless persons who, through the horrid and far-spreading infection of sin, not only repeat to enemies mutually enraged things said in passion against each other, but also add some things that were never said at all. It ought not to be enough in a truly humane man merely not to incite or increase the enmities of men by evil-speaking; he ought likewise to endeavor by kind words to extinguish them. Such a one was she—and thou, her most intimate instructor, didst teach her in the school of her heart.
22. Finally, her own husband, now toward the end of his earthly existence, she won over to thee. Henceforth, she had no cause to complain of unfaithfulness in him, which she had endured before he became one of the faithful. She was also the servant of thy servants. All those who knew her greatly praised, honored, and loved thee in her because, through the witness of the fruits of a holy life, they recognized thee present in her heart. For she had "been the wife of one man,"[292] had honored her parents, had guided her house in piety, was highly reputed for good works, and brought up her children, travailing in labor with them as often as she saw them swerving from thee. Lastly, to all of us, O Lord—since of thy favor thou allowest thy servants to speak—to all of us who lived together in that association before her death in thee she devoted such care as she might have if she had been mother of us all; she served us as if she had been the daughter of us all. "
so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
From a letter I wrote: Thanks for listening. God has gifted you, women, with strength, that us, men, do not possess. I think of the strength that God calls the wife to in 1 Peter 3 and how much power and influence submission, and a gentle and quiet spirit has. It changes the hearts of ungodly men, it gives you the ears of kings, and more. God’s mysteries are so amazing, he thwarts the wisdom of the world and takes what the world calls weakness and displays it into such a powerful strength. God’s calling for women to not have authority or to teach over men, is a calling for them to live in the strength and influence that he designed in women, to reflect His power and His mystery and His glory. And far from hindering them, God desires women to have a powerful influence over the church, no less then men. God displays his power in a quiet and gentle spirit strength, "which is very precious in the sight of God." Who can fathom the wisdom of God.
Sorry for going on, but I have been wrestling and struggling with this for several months and I am excited about how amazing God’s ways are. Thanks again for listening and being willing to talk to the pastor about leading. Thanks for all you have done.
----------------------------------------------------
Augustine’s Mother
Augustine’s mother followed these verses and believed them to be true. Here is Augustine’s account of it, who praised his mother often, for her godly character. She was greatly honored by the leaders in the church of her day. Her influence on the church was great and the effects of her life are still felt today. (She had an instrumental hand in the gospel being preserved through the Roman Catholic decay, for example.)
CHAPTER IX
"19. Thus modestly and soberly brought up, she was made subject to her parents by thee, rather more than by her parents to thee. She arrived at a marriageable age, and she was given to a husband whom she served as her lord. And she busied herself to gain him to thee, preaching thee to him by her behavior, in which thou madest her fair and reverently amiable, and admirable to her husband. For she endured with patience his infidelity and never had any dissension with her husband on this account. For she waited for thy mercy upon him until, by believing in thee, he might become chaste.
Moreover, even though he was earnest in friendship, he was also violent in anger; but she had learned that an angry husband should not be resisted, either in deed or in word. But as soon as he had grown calm and was tranquil, and she saw a fitting moment, she would give him a reason for her conduct, if he had been excited unreasonably. As a result, while many matrons whose husbands were more gentle than hers bore the marks of blows on their disfigured faces, and would in private talk blame the behavior of their husbands, she would blame their tongues, admonishing them seriously—though in a jesting manner—that from the hour they heard what are called the matrimonial tablets read to them, they should think of them as instruments by which they were made servants. So, always being mindful of their condition, they ought not to set themselves up in opposition to their lords. And, knowing what a furious, bad-tempered husband she endured, they marveled that it had never been rumored, nor was there any mark to show, that Patricius had ever beaten his wife, or that there had been any domestic strife between them, even for a day. And when they asked her confidentially the reason for this, she taught them the rule I have mentioned. Those who observed it confirmed the wisdom of it and rejoiced; those who did not observe it were bullied and vexed.
20. Even her mother-in-law, who was at first prejudiced against her by the whisperings of malicious servants, she conquered by submission, persevering in it with patience and meekness; with the result that the mother-in-law told her son of the tales of the meddling servants which had disturbed the domestic peace between herself and her daughter-in-law and begged him to punish them for it. In conformity with his mother’s wish, and in the interest of family discipline to insure the future harmony of its members, he had those servants beaten who were pointed out by her who had discovered them; and she promised a similar reward to anyone else who, thinking to please her, should say anything evil of her daughter-in-law. After this no one dared to do so, and they lived together with a wonderful sweetness of mutual good will.
21. This other great gift thou also didst bestow, O my God, my Mercy, upon that good handmaid of thine, in whose womb thou didst create me. It was that whenever she could she acted as a peacemaker between any differing and discordant spirits, and when she heard very bitter things on either side of a controversy—the kind of bloated and undigested discord which often belches forth bitter words, when crude malice is breathed out by sharp tongues to a present friend against an absent enemy—she would disclose nothing about the one to the other except what might serve toward their reconciliation. This might seem a small good to me if I did not know to my sorrow countless persons who, through the horrid and far-spreading infection of sin, not only repeat to enemies mutually enraged things said in passion against each other, but also add some things that were never said at all. It ought not to be enough in a truly humane man merely not to incite or increase the enmities of men by evil-speaking; he ought likewise to endeavor by kind words to extinguish them. Such a one was she—and thou, her most intimate instructor, didst teach her in the school of her heart.
22. Finally, her own husband, now toward the end of his earthly existence, she won over to thee. Henceforth, she had no cause to complain of unfaithfulness in him, which she had endured before he became one of the faithful. She was also the servant of thy servants. All those who knew her greatly praised, honored, and loved thee in her because, through the witness of the fruits of a holy life, they recognized thee present in her heart. For she had "been the wife of one man,"[292] had honored her parents, had guided her house in piety, was highly reputed for good works, and brought up her children, travailing in labor with them as often as she saw them swerving from thee. Lastly, to all of us, O Lord—since of thy favor thou allowest thy servants to speak—to all of us who lived together in that association before her death in thee she devoted such care as she might have if she had been mother of us all; she served us as if she had been the daughter of us all. "
1 Peter 3:1
1 Peter 3:1
1In the same way, you wives,
"In the same way", is referring to Peter’s previous description of slaves who were being treated unjustly. He is commanding them to be in obedience to the Lord, regardless of whether or not they are being treated justly by those they are to be in subjection to. The commands of God are not based on others obedience to them.
1In the same way, you wives,
"In the same way", is referring to Peter’s previous description of slaves who were being treated unjustly. He is commanding them to be in obedience to the Lord, regardless of whether or not they are being treated justly by those they are to be in subjection to. The commands of God are not based on others obedience to them.
Genesis 3:16, "desire"
Genesis 3:16
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.
Where as before sin there was not conflict between man and woman in the roles designed for them, this verse sets up the conflict between the roles of a man and a woman that came about as a consequence of sin. These words are the same as those spoken to Cain, when God says that sin desired to have him, but he should rule over sin. Before this man was the head of his wife, which was the intention of God in making man first, but without conflict. Sin, however brought about conflict, women would desire to rule over man, but he will oppressively rule over woman. There was now conflict and struggle in the roles between man and woman.
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.
Where as before sin there was not conflict between man and woman in the roles designed for them, this verse sets up the conflict between the roles of a man and a woman that came about as a consequence of sin. These words are the same as those spoken to Cain, when God says that sin desired to have him, but he should rule over sin. Before this man was the head of his wife, which was the intention of God in making man first, but without conflict. Sin, however brought about conflict, women would desire to rule over man, but he will oppressively rule over woman. There was now conflict and struggle in the roles between man and woman.
Genesis 2:23
Genesis 2:23
23The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."
The woman was created from the man. This is significant and this was the design of God. Also the fact that man named women signifies his headship as well as the fact that she was taken out of man.
23The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."
The woman was created from the man. This is significant and this was the design of God. Also the fact that man named women signifies his headship as well as the fact that she was taken out of man.
Genesis 2:18, "helper suitable for him"
Genesis 2:18
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
The LORD God says that His purpose in creating the woman was that she would be "a helper suitable for him." This is the purpose and design of every woman. This is what she was made to be.
18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
The LORD God says that His purpose in creating the woman was that she would be "a helper suitable for him." This is the purpose and design of every woman. This is what she was made to be.
Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7
7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
God created man first. This was not done lightly. This was His design. His purpose for man was to be the head of woman.
7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
God created man first. This was not done lightly. This was His design. His purpose for man was to be the head of woman.
1 Corinthians 14:35, "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home"
1 Corinthians 14:35
35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;
I believe this verse shows at least one purpose to this command. The command establishes the home as a place for learning and becoming established in the Word of God. If a woman asks her husband questions, then he must lead in order to answer the questions. The verse challenges the husband to lead the family in learning about the scripture. This hearkens back to
Deuteronomy 6:4-9:
4"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."
I believe that it is the promise of God, that if women obey this verse, He will use their obedience to build their homes in strength and glory. And this obedient woman will be praised and honored and valued. Based on other scriptures (specifically Numbers 30) and the fact that this would probably be something that was already done and there would be know need for Paul to mention it, I also think that this verse would apply to daughters in asking fathers at home as well.
For women in the church who have neither a father or a husband, it is the responsibility of the church to provide a means of covering for them and a place for them to come to be able to ask questions. Each church may provide this as they see fit provided they remain within the boundaries of the scripture.
If a husband or father does not know the answer, they should go to the leadership and find the answer, not the woman.
One day when I was walking and praying. I wasn’t thinking about these verses, but I felt like God spoke this to me, that these verses were for the building up of the family. I don’t want to be quick to base my interpretation of these verses on that as good as it sounds. This is something that needs to be thoroughly tested before being accepted.
Why is Paul specifically talking about asking questions here? Is it to say that women not only are not allowed to make comments, but they are also not allowed to ask questions? How does this give us insight in to what Paul is saying?
I need to study this more.
35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;
I believe this verse shows at least one purpose to this command. The command establishes the home as a place for learning and becoming established in the Word of God. If a woman asks her husband questions, then he must lead in order to answer the questions. The verse challenges the husband to lead the family in learning about the scripture. This hearkens back to
Deuteronomy 6:4-9:
4"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."
I believe that it is the promise of God, that if women obey this verse, He will use their obedience to build their homes in strength and glory. And this obedient woman will be praised and honored and valued. Based on other scriptures (specifically Numbers 30) and the fact that this would probably be something that was already done and there would be know need for Paul to mention it, I also think that this verse would apply to daughters in asking fathers at home as well.
For women in the church who have neither a father or a husband, it is the responsibility of the church to provide a means of covering for them and a place for them to come to be able to ask questions. Each church may provide this as they see fit provided they remain within the boundaries of the scripture.
If a husband or father does not know the answer, they should go to the leadership and find the answer, not the woman.
One day when I was walking and praying. I wasn’t thinking about these verses, but I felt like God spoke this to me, that these verses were for the building up of the family. I don’t want to be quick to base my interpretation of these verses on that as good as it sounds. This is something that needs to be thoroughly tested before being accepted.
Why is Paul specifically talking about asking questions here? Is it to say that women not only are not allowed to make comments, but they are also not allowed to ask questions? How does this give us insight in to what Paul is saying?
I need to study this more.
1 Corinthians 14:34, "Law"
1 Corinthians 14:34
Just as the Law also says.
Every time the Greek for the word law in this text is used it is used to describe the scriptures and the commands of God. For example, in the same chapter verse 21, "‘In the Law it is written, "By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me,’ says the Lord." This means that Paul is commanding the women to "subject themselves" because it is the scripture and God that commands it. This is not an option nor is Paul commanding it based on the culture of the time, but instead on the lasting principles of the Word of God.
It is probable that Paul is here referring to Geneses 2 and 3 for these are the same passages referred to in 1 Timothy 2:13, 14.
Just as the Law also says.
Every time the Greek for the word law in this text is used it is used to describe the scriptures and the commands of God. For example, in the same chapter verse 21, "‘In the Law it is written, "By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me,’ says the Lord." This means that Paul is commanding the women to "subject themselves" because it is the scripture and God that commands it. This is not an option nor is Paul commanding it based on the culture of the time, but instead on the lasting principles of the Word of God.
It is probable that Paul is here referring to Geneses 2 and 3 for these are the same passages referred to in 1 Timothy 2:13, 14.
1 Corinthians 14:34, "subject"
1 Corinthians 14:34
but are to subject themselves,
Instead of speaking women are to subject themselves. The word subject here is the same Greek word used in many other passages and also where a wife is told to be in submissive to her husband (Eph. 5:22; Col 3:18; 1Cor 3:34; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5). It means to be submissive. We see this idea also in 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2 and elsewhere. This is clearly a command from the Lord (from the evidence of the scripture) and God’s intent from the beginning of creation and not a cultural bias. Women are to subject themselves, because it is the heart of the Lord that they do so. Paul says, "just as the Law says".
but are to subject themselves,
Instead of speaking women are to subject themselves. The word subject here is the same Greek word used in many other passages and also where a wife is told to be in submissive to her husband (Eph. 5:22; Col 3:18; 1Cor 3:34; Titus 2:5; 1 Peter 3:1, 5). It means to be submissive. We see this idea also in 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2 and elsewhere. This is clearly a command from the Lord (from the evidence of the scripture) and God’s intent from the beginning of creation and not a cultural bias. Women are to subject themselves, because it is the heart of the Lord that they do so. Paul says, "just as the Law says".
1 Corinthians 14:34, "not permited to speak"
For they are not permitted to speak,
They are to be silent because they are not permitted to speak. The command for women to be silent is given a reason here – "for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves". The Greek for the word "speak" means simply to speak or talk. It is used in this text for public speaking, which is involved throughout this passage. This does not prohibit worship or corporate expressions such as cooperate praying or cooperate speaking in tongues or corporate prophesying as in Acts 2. It does allow for cooperate expressions in the church, as is seen in other places and here in scripture. The context of speech here within this chapter is public speaking in the assembly.
-- It is obvious that the women here are commanded to be silent in the churches, because they are to be in subjection, for this is what the scriptures says, but why does Paul say they are not permitted to speak? Is this an emphatic expression confirming that they are not to speak, so that there will be no misunderstanding of what Paul means. In a sense saying "Women are not to be silent, let me repeat that so you understand and there is no confusion, they are not permitted to speak." Or is Paul telling the women that because they are not permitted to speak and are to be in subjection they are to be silent. This would still mean that women are never to teach or have authority, but on top of that they are to be subject to the rules placed on them. Later Paul says that it is shameful for a woman to speak. These possible points need to be addressed fully and are significant to understanding these verses.
I do not think we should be quick to cancel out these verses. We must remember that these words are God breathed. They come from God! They are not wasted words. They are here because they are important and meaningful. It may be that women are not to speak in the church. (And something that cannot be argued is that Paul was telling the women in the all the churches of his day not to speak. This is abundantly clear. So that must be taken seriously.) I think sometimes we are so bound by our cultural perspectives and by the world that tie us down in chains and miss out on the great freedom, goodness and beauty of the Lord. We should not be afraid, if God is saying that women should not speak in the church, for He is good and we can trust that it is for our good, even if we don’t understand it. It does seem to be clear that the upfront statement here in these verses is that women are not to speak in the church. We cannot evade that. And if we try to cancel that out because it makes us feel uncomfortable, we are doing a great grievance and injustice to the scripture and telling God that we do not trust Him. It is hard for me, but we should not disregard or disobey God’s word lightly. Unless one can come up with a strong case for women to be allowed to speak, then we should obey the teaching of these verses and honor God and trust His word.
-- Personal note: I do not feel comfortable with not allowing women to speak. I am having a hard time with that and it’s a strong struggle for me. But my trust in God must come above what I feel or want. I would rather trust God and not have women speaking and err (if it is an "err") on the side of obedience, than to base my actions or interpretation on what I feel and neglect or take lightly God’s word. I don’t have the definite word on this yet, I don’t know whether women should or should not speak at all. At this point I could make a strong case for both sides from these scriptures. I still have some questions that I am taking before the Lord on this, and I don’t want to be quick to make a stand on this. But when it comes to a trust issue, do I trust God?
- -The question needs to be "How do I obey these verses?" "Am I obeying these verses?" not "How do I prove them wrong?"
In 1 Peter 3 Paul says that women are to win over there own ungodly husbands through there conduct, without a word. The Proverbs 31 women influenced the city gates by her conduct without speaking a word at the city gates. (I think there is a beauty in this as there is in a flower; a captivating and strong beauty.) If God is commanding women not to speak, it is not a great hindrance. Power of God does not come from the "wise" or the "strong" things of this world. And we should not put our hopes on those things. I do not believe it is those who teach or have authority that have the most influence, but those who are lowly and live out the Gospel and the Word with their lives. This is where real strength is. Personally for me I do not see God using me in power by my seeking to speak or to have authority. I don’t think that I would have more influence, if I were a pastor or a leader. My strength and influence comes not from speaking or having authority, but from faithfully living out God’s word. It is not my purpose to be great, but instead to make Him great. And in the church it is not for me to build my self up to greatness, but to serve and build up others to greatness. This is my treasure. This is my reward in the Lord.
They are to be silent because they are not permitted to speak. The command for women to be silent is given a reason here – "for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves". The Greek for the word "speak" means simply to speak or talk. It is used in this text for public speaking, which is involved throughout this passage. This does not prohibit worship or corporate expressions such as cooperate praying or cooperate speaking in tongues or corporate prophesying as in Acts 2. It does allow for cooperate expressions in the church, as is seen in other places and here in scripture. The context of speech here within this chapter is public speaking in the assembly.
-- It is obvious that the women here are commanded to be silent in the churches, because they are to be in subjection, for this is what the scriptures says, but why does Paul say they are not permitted to speak? Is this an emphatic expression confirming that they are not to speak, so that there will be no misunderstanding of what Paul means. In a sense saying "Women are not to be silent, let me repeat that so you understand and there is no confusion, they are not permitted to speak." Or is Paul telling the women that because they are not permitted to speak and are to be in subjection they are to be silent. This would still mean that women are never to teach or have authority, but on top of that they are to be subject to the rules placed on them. Later Paul says that it is shameful for a woman to speak. These possible points need to be addressed fully and are significant to understanding these verses.
I do not think we should be quick to cancel out these verses. We must remember that these words are God breathed. They come from God! They are not wasted words. They are here because they are important and meaningful. It may be that women are not to speak in the church. (And something that cannot be argued is that Paul was telling the women in the all the churches of his day not to speak. This is abundantly clear. So that must be taken seriously.) I think sometimes we are so bound by our cultural perspectives and by the world that tie us down in chains and miss out on the great freedom, goodness and beauty of the Lord. We should not be afraid, if God is saying that women should not speak in the church, for He is good and we can trust that it is for our good, even if we don’t understand it. It does seem to be clear that the upfront statement here in these verses is that women are not to speak in the church. We cannot evade that. And if we try to cancel that out because it makes us feel uncomfortable, we are doing a great grievance and injustice to the scripture and telling God that we do not trust Him. It is hard for me, but we should not disregard or disobey God’s word lightly. Unless one can come up with a strong case for women to be allowed to speak, then we should obey the teaching of these verses and honor God and trust His word.
-- Personal note: I do not feel comfortable with not allowing women to speak. I am having a hard time with that and it’s a strong struggle for me. But my trust in God must come above what I feel or want. I would rather trust God and not have women speaking and err (if it is an "err") on the side of obedience, than to base my actions or interpretation on what I feel and neglect or take lightly God’s word. I don’t have the definite word on this yet, I don’t know whether women should or should not speak at all. At this point I could make a strong case for both sides from these scriptures. I still have some questions that I am taking before the Lord on this, and I don’t want to be quick to make a stand on this. But when it comes to a trust issue, do I trust God?
- -The question needs to be "How do I obey these verses?" "Am I obeying these verses?" not "How do I prove them wrong?"
In 1 Peter 3 Paul says that women are to win over there own ungodly husbands through there conduct, without a word. The Proverbs 31 women influenced the city gates by her conduct without speaking a word at the city gates. (I think there is a beauty in this as there is in a flower; a captivating and strong beauty.) If God is commanding women not to speak, it is not a great hindrance. Power of God does not come from the "wise" or the "strong" things of this world. And we should not put our hopes on those things. I do not believe it is those who teach or have authority that have the most influence, but those who are lowly and live out the Gospel and the Word with their lives. This is where real strength is. Personally for me I do not see God using me in power by my seeking to speak or to have authority. I don’t think that I would have more influence, if I were a pastor or a leader. My strength and influence comes not from speaking or having authority, but from faithfully living out God’s word. It is not my purpose to be great, but instead to make Him great. And in the church it is not for me to build my self up to greatness, but to serve and build up others to greatness. This is my treasure. This is my reward in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:26-40
1 Corinthians 14:26-40
26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.
Sunday, November 25, 2007
1 Timothy 2:11, "entire submissiveness"
1 Timothy 2:11
with entire submissiveness.
The root in the Greek is the same as elsewhere in the New Testament. The places where this word is specifically used are 2 Cor 9:13; Gal 2:5; and 1 Tim 2:11, 3:4. Paul does not want the fact that women should learn to open the door for women to grow in pride and walk outside their God given roles as a woman and disobey scripture.
with entire submissiveness.
The root in the Greek is the same as elsewhere in the New Testament. The places where this word is specifically used are 2 Cor 9:13; Gal 2:5; and 1 Tim 2:11, 3:4. Paul does not want the fact that women should learn to open the door for women to grow in pride and walk outside their God given roles as a woman and disobey scripture.
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