Roles women in the church can take - Ask Pastor Tim Conway

2 Kings 22:14-20

1 Kings 22:14-20

14So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter); and they spoke to her. 15She said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to me, 16thus says the LORD, "Behold, I bring evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read. 17"Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods that they might provoke Me to anger with all the work of their hands, therefore My wrath burns against this place, and it shall not be quenched."' 18"But to the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the LORD thus shall you say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel, "Regarding the words which you have heard, 19because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they should become a desolation and a curse, and you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you," declares the LORD. 20"Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes will not see all the evil which I will bring on this place."'" So they brought back word to the king.

No woman in all history was given a public, authoritative role as a prophet, for example as with Isaiah and Jeremiah. There were women prophets, but they did not cross the line of womanhood. Huldah is a good example of this.

Proverbs 31:31

Proverbs 31:31

31Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates.

Even though this woman does not sit at the gates or discuss issues with the men, her reputation precedes her and brings her honor at the place of influence of the city. She is respected and has influence on the affairs of the city and I believe this respect and influence is greater than some of the men in the city. This verse also shows that it is not necessary for a woman to speak to influence the church or society for that matter. If she walks in womanhood and godliness she will influence many, more than if she tried to teach or take authority. And her influence will not only be a gain to her, but as we see in this chapter it is a gain to the husband, children, and the city; all these become greater not less because of her.

From a letter I wrote: I want to leave you with this thought. The Proverbs 31 women did not sit at the gates and yet she was praised at the gates. It is my belief that even though she was not in a place of authority, nor did she venture to speak at the gates, she had more influence than many of the men in the town. I would even venture to say that she had more influence than some of the men who sat at the city gates (I put this lightly, I think she had great influence). On top of this it says her husband is known in the city gates, when he sits among the elders. This is not a quality about the husband, it is a statement about the women (Proverbs 31 is about the wife not the husband). Also 1 Peter 3 shows how this character would influence an ungodly man. Imagine what it would do with a godly man. Also I know as a man there stronger way a woman could influence me; there is something about this kind of woman that challenges a man to be more than he is. I think power and influence in God's kingdom does not look like the world. And that is why I am not afraid to say, lets obey this. The scripture says that he makes the strong things foolish by what the world calls weakness. God's strength is often made powerfully evident in the things the world calls weak. And the greatest in the kingdom of God is the one who serves.

Proverbs 31:25,26

Proverbs 31:25,26

25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
And she smiles at the future.
26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

This woman is knowledgeable, wise, gives good council and instruction. I believe that in all that a woman does she should always be presenting the gospel and the character of God in both deeds and word. She may not be able to teach or have authority over a man, but that is not excuse for her not to teach through her life and in the times that are appropriate for her to speak, her words should fall sweetly and speak of the depth of God. If others are not learning from a woman, she is not walking in the fullness that God has for her.

Proverbs 31:23

Proverbs 31:23

23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.

This whole chapter is about the woman, not the man, and I believe this verse is about her as well. I believe it is saying this man has the reputation he has at the gates because of his wife. I think this is because of two things. Here godly walk and encouragement makes him a better man and her repetition brings him honor. She is the glory of her husband. Instead of speaking, I believe it is the role of a woman to build up men to speak, specifically her husband.

1 Peter 3:1

1 Peter 3:1

won without a word

A woman has power and strength, dignity and influence without speaking a word.

In our culture, we have forgotten where true power lies.

1 Peter 3:1,2

1 Peter 3:1,2

so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

From a letter I wrote: Thanks for listening. God has gifted you, women, with strength, that us, men, do not possess. I think of the strength that God calls the wife to in 1 Peter 3 and how much power and influence submission, and a gentle and quiet spirit has. It changes the hearts of ungodly men, it gives you the ears of kings, and more. God’s mysteries are so amazing, he thwarts the wisdom of the world and takes what the world calls weakness and displays it into such a powerful strength. God’s calling for women to not have authority or to teach over men, is a calling for them to live in the strength and influence that he designed in women, to reflect His power and His mystery and His glory. And far from hindering them, God desires women to have a powerful influence over the church, no less then men. God displays his power in a quiet and gentle spirit strength, "which is very precious in the sight of God." Who can fathom the wisdom of God.

Sorry for going on, but I have been wrestling and struggling with this for several months and I am excited about how amazing God’s ways are. Thanks again for listening and being willing to talk to the pastor about leading. Thanks for all you have done.

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Augustine’s Mother

Augustine’s mother followed these verses and believed them to be true. Here is Augustine’s account of it, who praised his mother often, for her godly character. She was greatly honored by the leaders in the church of her day. Her influence on the church was great and the effects of her life are still felt today. (She had an instrumental hand in the gospel being preserved through the Roman Catholic decay, for example.)

CHAPTER IX
"19. Thus modestly and soberly brought up, she was made subject to her parents by thee, rather more than by her parents to thee. She arrived at a marriageable age, and she was given to a husband whom she served as her lord. And she busied herself to gain him to thee, preaching thee to him by her behavior, in which thou madest her fair and reverently amiable, and admirable to her husband. For she endured with patience his infidelity and never had any dissension with her husband on this account. For she waited for thy mercy upon him until, by believing in thee, he might become chaste.

Moreover, even though he was earnest in friendship, he was also violent in anger; but she had learned that an angry husband should not be resisted, either in deed or in word. But as soon as he had grown calm and was tranquil, and she saw a fitting moment, she would give him a reason for her conduct, if he had been excited unreasonably. As a result, while many matrons whose husbands were more gentle than hers bore the marks of blows on their disfigured faces, and would in private talk blame the behavior of their husbands, she would blame their tongues, admonishing them seriously—though in a jesting manner—that from the hour they heard what are called the matrimonial tablets read to them, they should think of them as instruments by which they were made servants. So, always being mindful of their condition, they ought not to set themselves up in opposition to their lords. And, knowing what a furious, bad-tempered husband she endured, they marveled that it had never been rumored, nor was there any mark to show, that Patricius had ever beaten his wife, or that there had been any domestic strife between them, even for a day. And when they asked her confidentially the reason for this, she taught them the rule I have mentioned. Those who observed it confirmed the wisdom of it and rejoiced; those who did not observe it were bullied and vexed.

20. Even her mother-in-law, who was at first prejudiced against her by the whisperings of malicious servants, she conquered by submission, persevering in it with patience and meekness; with the result that the mother-in-law told her son of the tales of the meddling servants which had disturbed the domestic peace between herself and her daughter-in-law and begged him to punish them for it. In conformity with his mother’s wish, and in the interest of family discipline to insure the future harmony of its members, he had those servants beaten who were pointed out by her who had discovered them; and she promised a similar reward to anyone else who, thinking to please her, should say anything evil of her daughter-in-law. After this no one dared to do so, and they lived together with a wonderful sweetness of mutual good will.

21. This other great gift thou also didst bestow, O my God, my Mercy, upon that good handmaid of thine, in whose womb thou didst create me. It was that whenever she could she acted as a peacemaker between any differing and discordant spirits, and when she heard very bitter things on either side of a controversy—the kind of bloated and undigested discord which often belches forth bitter words, when crude malice is breathed out by sharp tongues to a present friend against an absent enemy—she would disclose nothing about the one to the other except what might serve toward their reconciliation. This might seem a small good to me if I did not know to my sorrow countless persons who, through the horrid and far-spreading infection of sin, not only repeat to enemies mutually enraged things said in passion against each other, but also add some things that were never said at all. It ought not to be enough in a truly humane man merely not to incite or increase the enmities of men by evil-speaking; he ought likewise to endeavor by kind words to extinguish them. Such a one was she—and thou, her most intimate instructor, didst teach her in the school of her heart.

22. Finally, her own husband, now toward the end of his earthly existence, she won over to thee. Henceforth, she had no cause to complain of unfaithfulness in him, which she had endured before he became one of the faithful. She was also the servant of thy servants. All those who knew her greatly praised, honored, and loved thee in her because, through the witness of the fruits of a holy life, they recognized thee present in her heart. For she had "been the wife of one man,"[292] had honored her parents, had guided her house in piety, was highly reputed for good works, and brought up her children, travailing in labor with them as often as she saw them swerving from thee. Lastly, to all of us, O Lord—since of thy favor thou allowest thy servants to speak—to all of us who lived together in that association before her death in thee she devoted such care as she might have if she had been mother of us all; she served us as if she had been the daughter of us all. "

1 Corinthians 14:35, "improper"

1 Corinthians 14:35

For it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

They are to ask their husbands at homes for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Paul says for a woman to disobey this it would be a "shame, base, and dishonorable" thing. I think part of the shame would be that in not asking her father or husband at home, the woman misses an opportunity for building up her home. Also for her not to look to her husband or father as an authority is to put him to shame. It is definitely a shame for a woman not to build up her home and to fulfill her design as "a helper suitable for him" (Gen 2:18). Or it may just be the fact that speaking represents dishonoring men and therefore is "shameful". Whatever the reason is for it being a "shame" it comes out of the fact that the woman is not obeying the scripture that teaches that a woman are to subject themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:35, "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home"

1 Corinthians 14:35

35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;

I believe this verse shows at least one purpose to this command. The command establishes the home as a place for learning and becoming established in the Word of God. If a woman asks her husband questions, then he must lead in order to answer the questions. The verse challenges the husband to lead the family in learning about the scripture. This hearkens back to

Deuteronomy 6:4-9:
4"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

I believe that it is the promise of God, that if women obey this verse, He will use their obedience to build their homes in strength and glory. And this obedient woman will be praised and honored and valued. Based on other scriptures (specifically Numbers 30) and the fact that this would probably be something that was already done and there would be know need for Paul to mention it, I also think that this verse would apply to daughters in asking fathers at home as well.

For women in the church who have neither a father or a husband, it is the responsibility of the church to provide a means of covering for them and a place for them to come to be able to ask questions. Each church may provide this as they see fit provided they remain within the boundaries of the scripture.

If a husband or father does not know the answer, they should go to the leadership and find the answer, not the woman.

One day when I was walking and praying. I wasn’t thinking about these verses, but I felt like God spoke this to me, that these verses were for the building up of the family. I don’t want to be quick to base my interpretation of these verses on that as good as it sounds. This is something that needs to be thoroughly tested before being accepted.

Why is Paul specifically talking about asking questions here? Is it to say that women not only are not allowed to make comments, but they are also not allowed to ask questions? How does this give us insight in to what Paul is saying?

I need to study this more.

1 Corinthians 14:34, "not permited to speak"

For they are not permitted to speak,
They are to be silent because they are not permitted to speak. The command for women to be silent is given a reason here – "for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves". The Greek for the word "speak" means simply to speak or talk. It is used in this text for public speaking, which is involved throughout this passage. This does not prohibit worship or corporate expressions such as cooperate praying or cooperate speaking in tongues or corporate prophesying as in Acts 2. It does allow for cooperate expressions in the church, as is seen in other places and here in scripture. The context of speech here within this chapter is public speaking in the assembly.

-- It is obvious that the women here are commanded to be silent in the churches, because they are to be in subjection, for this is what the scriptures says, but why does Paul say they are not permitted to speak? Is this an emphatic expression confirming that they are not to speak, so that there will be no misunderstanding of what Paul means. In a sense saying "Women are not to be silent, let me repeat that so you understand and there is no confusion, they are not permitted to speak." Or is Paul telling the women that because they are not permitted to speak and are to be in subjection they are to be silent. This would still mean that women are never to teach or have authority, but on top of that they are to be subject to the rules placed on them. Later Paul says that it is shameful for a woman to speak. These possible points need to be addressed fully and are significant to understanding these verses.

I do not think we should be quick to cancel out these verses. We must remember that these words are God breathed. They come from God! They are not wasted words. They are here because they are important and meaningful. It may be that women are not to speak in the church. (And something that cannot be argued is that Paul was telling the women in the all the churches of his day not to speak. This is abundantly clear. So that must be taken seriously.) I think sometimes we are so bound by our cultural perspectives and by the world that tie us down in chains and miss out on the great freedom, goodness and beauty of the Lord. We should not be afraid, if God is saying that women should not speak in the church, for He is good and we can trust that it is for our good, even if we don’t understand it. It does seem to be clear that the upfront statement here in these verses is that women are not to speak in the church. We cannot evade that. And if we try to cancel that out because it makes us feel uncomfortable, we are doing a great grievance and injustice to the scripture and telling God that we do not trust Him. It is hard for me, but we should not disregard or disobey God’s word lightly. Unless one can come up with a strong case for women to be allowed to speak, then we should obey the teaching of these verses and honor God and trust His word.

-- Personal note: I do not feel comfortable with not allowing women to speak. I am having a hard time with that and it’s a strong struggle for me. But my trust in God must come above what I feel or want. I would rather trust God and not have women speaking and err (if it is an "err") on the side of obedience, than to base my actions or interpretation on what I feel and neglect or take lightly God’s word. I don’t have the definite word on this yet, I don’t know whether women should or should not speak at all. At this point I could make a strong case for both sides from these scriptures. I still have some questions that I am taking before the Lord on this, and I don’t want to be quick to make a stand on this. But when it comes to a trust issue, do I trust God?

- -The question needs to be "How do I obey these verses?" "Am I obeying these verses?" not "How do I prove them wrong?"

In 1 Peter 3 Paul says that women are to win over there own ungodly husbands through there conduct, without a word. The Proverbs 31 women influenced the city gates by her conduct without speaking a word at the city gates. (I think there is a beauty in this as there is in a flower; a captivating and strong beauty.) If God is commanding women not to speak, it is not a great hindrance. Power of God does not come from the "wise" or the "strong" things of this world. And we should not put our hopes on those things. I do not believe it is those who teach or have authority that have the most influence, but those who are lowly and live out the Gospel and the Word with their lives. This is where real strength is. Personally for me I do not see God using me in power by my seeking to speak or to have authority. I don’t think that I would have more influence, if I were a pastor or a leader. My strength and influence comes not from speaking or having authority, but from faithfully living out God’s word. It is not my purpose to be great, but instead to make Him great. And in the church it is not for me to build my self up to greatness, but to serve and build up others to greatness. This is my treasure. This is my reward in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:34, "silent"

1 Corinthians 14:34

Are to keep silent

The Greek word for silence in this verse means "1) to keep silence, hold one’s peace, 2) to be kept in silence, be concealed". In every case except two it is used in a manner that the person is quiet in order to allow another to speak or in order to not interrupt, fitting with the first definition (Luke 20:26; Acts 12:17, 15:12,13; 1 Cr 14:28,30,34). This word is used three times in this chapter and each time in this manner. A person is told to keep silent if there is no interpreter. The second time they are told to keep silent if another has a revelation. And the third time for women. These verses are dealing with when it is and when it is not appropriate to speak in the church publicly. It says it is not appropriate for a woman to speak in the assembly, without specification to a situation. Women are told to keep silent and not to speak out.

In the other two cases the word is used in the sense of the second definition "to be kept in silence, be concealed" (Rom 16:25; Luke 9:36).

1 Corinthians 14:26-40

1 Corinthians 14:26-40

26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

1 Timothy 2:12, "remain quiet"

1 TImothy 2:12

but to remain quiet.

“Quiet” is the same Greek word as above. The word quietly does not necessarily mean not speaking (although it can), but an attitude of quietness and peaceful living. It is also in verse 11 and 2 Thessalonians 3:2. This is the second time Paul commands for women to be quiet in this section. Paul has given this idea emphasis and indicates that this is important and not to be ignored. It is to be obeyed.

- Even though this word does not necessarily indicate speaking (although it could), in light of its being used twice and 1Corinthians 14:34, 35, we must consider that 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 is further explanation of what it means to be silent. And that the idea of not speaking is possible.

1 Timothy 2:11, "quietly"

1 Timothy 2:11

must quietly

The word quietly (hesuchia) does not necessarily mean not speaking (although it can and at times does), but can be used to represent an attitude of quietness and peaceful living. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 is an example of this: “Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness 2271 they work , and eat their own bread.” This word can also mean silence as it is used in Acts 22:2 “(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence 2271: and he saith ,) This is also the same word used in verse 12 of 1 Timothy 2. The root word is hesuchios which is used in 1 Timothy 2:2 and 1 Peter 3:4.